The other day I had an interesting
twitter conversation with blogger Arun who in real life is a caring doctor and
an atheist. It started off with the following tweet from Arun.
Arun @Charakan RT“@BobCarmody:@AtheistWorld If prayer worked we would all be rich. We could also all be dead from each others' prayers. Etc etc#fail”
I couldn’t help but send forth the
following tweet:
Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan but what if you are praying to a discerning God who decides if one is to get rich or should be dead :)
Therein followed more tweets and the
end result was that none moved an inch further away from their own
conviction.
Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK If t mythical god is discerning & act according to merits wht is t use of praying. All those who pray are then fools -:)
Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan Well.. prayers are not for God.. it is for your own self....an ack that one is a mere human
Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK gud tht u agree prayers are speaking to urself. But what a stupid way of speaking to one self!How it helps in reminding v r humans?Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan if we were all not human but God we wouldnt be praying but would have been all powerful to do anything.Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK lol- Asha, first u have to take out this concept about all powerful god myth Then u bcome saneHappy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan Well.. did I not survive this long without being "sane".. am sure I shall survive a bit more :)Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK logically thinking thr can't be an all knowing all powerful creature So y such conceptsHappy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan not if you have experienced it personally... for an atheist such experience may be random acts.. I have experienced His care
Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK@arunpillai666 have faith in yourselves No one else is there -:)Arun @Charakan@arunpillai666@asha_ek evry 1 deals with their problems themselves. Family friends Including talking to themselves may help.Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 You say that all those who blv in God are insane..that does not make you sane.Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK yes brain washing from early childhood is t foremost reason for persistence of this insanity called belief in god@arunpillai666Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK@arunpillai666 have faith in yourselves No one else is there -:)Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 when I was a baby/toddler/child,I put my faith in my parents didnt I?I dont find it odd to place my faith n God nowHappy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 In this mad world I need an infinite reference point which is absolutely good.. Can you give me an alternative?Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK parents are in front of u in flesh and blood So it is sane unlike t insane belief in mythical god -:)@arunpillai666Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 these same parents blvd in an unseen God before me.. may parents are not insane..Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK yes brain washing from early childhood is t foremost reason for persistence of this insanity called belief in god@arunpillai666Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 You say that all those who blv in God are insane..that does not make you sane.
Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 there are enough arnd us.. senseless killing, raping, looting etc.
Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK all t violence u described are thr in this World for centuries along with God belief Nothing new@arunpillai666Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 hence I want an alternative.. it is there for sureArun @Charakan@Asha_EK Wht evr u enjoy r fruits human civilisation No utopian alternative presented by mythical god available@arunpillai666Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK violence in this World among Humans is comparatively less now as more & more ppl quit religion & embrace humanism@arunpillai666Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 maybe many have stopped being "religious" or are staying away from religious institutions.Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 According to one estimate, atheists make up about 2.3% of the world's population..do they sustain this world?Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK@arunpillai666 in Western Europe those hu states they r not Theists are 1/3 to 1/2 of population. World is following Europe -:)@Asha_EK@arunpillai666 ur god beliefs have been sufficiently diluted by Humanism so that u do not follow ur scriptures blindly So non toxic
Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 hhhaaaaa.... what if my humanism comes from my belief in God? you will not accept it?
Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK tht is because of ur & ur parents humanist culture All religious scriptures threaten ppl to believe@arunpillai666
Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 how long doc? N evry prsns life cms a tme whn he rels tht hs parnts r not prfct. Lkws one qustns evrthng evn a GodArun @Charakan@Asha_EK lol Most ppl force kids to pray. Tell if u dont believe or pray te will go to a mythical horrid place called hell@arunpillai666
Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 so how many % of atheists in this world?Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK Wht evr u enjoy r fruits human civilisation No utopian alternative presented by mythical god available@arunpillai666
Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 Yet many of these giants who left a mark upon this world believed in God.why didnt they treat themselves as Gods?
Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK think u have to get out of this god concept Need de addiction Not ur fault Brain washing of childhood -:)@arunpillai666Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 :) if my belief in God works for me why should I get out.. it is a good addiction for meArun @Charakan@Asha_EK@arunpillai666 no compulsion Only request not to brain wash & instil fear of mythical god in ur kidsHappy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 If it works for me why not for my kids?Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK lol Most ppl force kids to pray. Tell if u dont believe or pray te will go to a mythical horrid place called hell@arunpillai666Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 have never done that myself nor my parentsArun @Charakan@Asha_EK tht is because of ur & ur parents humanist culture All religious scriptures threaten ppl to believe@arunpillai666Happy Kitten @Asha_EK@Charakan@arunpillai666 Fear? you have wrong ideas abt God.. someone brainwashed you :)
Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK Wht kind of god myth u believe in? Believe in relg scriptures?@arunpillai666Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK thr is no need of questioning a mythical creature -:) do u question t pink unicorn?@arunpillai666Arun @Charakan@Asha_EK Try to get tht god concept out. U will enjoy tht freedom. send t link when u use my tweets. will read & comment@arunpillai666
So do we believe in God because our
parents instilled in us the fear of God?
Does belief in God make us better or
worse as humans?
Will we be freer if we throw these
fetters that binds us to God? More free to do well or to do evil?
What about those atheists turned
believers?
What is that draws us to God?
Personally for me God has been real
in my life. He was always an unseen force guiding me through the rough times of
my life. He is someone to whom I talk daily. Even otherwise when one look at
nature and it’s loveliness how many of us cannot but help send a silent note of gratitude to the one who made all this. If His creations are so perfect and beautiful
won’t He be the ultimate? Or when we see the good deeds from around us who
really inspires them ? There must be some remnant of the “God particle” in each one of
us which makes us question His presence itself. Or when we the evil around us dont we want a reference point of goodness? Is this ultimate goodness only a myth?
As for the atheists, their unbelief
might have been passed over from their parents or they must be seeing the
senselessness of religion and steering far away from it. Organized religion has
turned many away from God completely. Look at the recent attack on a helpless
girl from Pakistan just because she wanted to study! Was she not shot in the name of God? Can someone believe in such a God? Can a loving God do such senseless acts?
Organized religion has
done every evil on this earth in the name of God. If God is good how did it end
this way? How did those who learn about him practice ways to do more evil than good?
Guess these questions shall remain unanswered while many continue to believe in Him while many others shun this concept called GOD.
I hope my readers too would shed more light on this topic.
Why did they turn towards or away from God ?
Oh u did a post about this? Good.
ReplyDeleteWhy I do not believe in a all powerful supernatural power? This questioln is like asking me why I do not believe I am living in Sun not on Earth. I follow evidences, based on our senses and scientific experiments and believe in honesty. So being honest to my logical approach I can't say falsely that I am living in sun or there is a god.
Asha, how can one be anti to something which is not there ?-:)
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments Doc.
DeleteWhat does one do if this same sense steers some of us to God? As much as you blv there is no God, some of us blv that there is :)
As for evidence I dont think anyone has proved as yet that there is no God! I mean scientifically. Even great scientists blv in God.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html
A famous saying of Einsteen was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Asha, your concept of god is lacking in scientific evidence. That is why I am an atheist. If u say there is something with out any evidence, it is you who have to prove it is there, not me who has to disprove it..
ReplyDeleteYou seems to think highly of words of famous people. Logically what A or B says is not important. Important is what they can prove.
We cannot prove how this universe was born yet blv that universe operates by uniform laws of nature. If some of us believe that it is not a random occurance but a part of creation then God exists.
DeleteOur DNA is like a computer code and someone had to write it! Each human being is unique. If God's non-existence could be proved and easily convinced this discussion would have been obsolete. Majority blvs in God and why?
The tweets exchanged I feel are both bordering obstinacy. The anxiety in both cases I felt was to prove ones point and to disprove the other by arguments. In your case you wanted to badly believe that God exists and in the case of the gentleman he kept repeating like a canary brain washing, humanism, no god etc. This is the problem when an atheist and a believer confront. And Asha, how can you be certain that God is “he”. You have been referring to God as he all through? Perhaps a bit of male chauvinism in you? Just pun don’t take it to heart
ReplyDeleteWhy not think about washing our brain and not brain washing. We all need washing our brains don’t we?
I’m a more of a non-believer. And even if it were true that God existed, I see him /her as a highly inefficient and helpless individual. Look around at the chaos and I do not find a reason to think otherwise.
I’m quoting the Rig veda on creation, para that has given me much to think about and answers too. “Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.”
The argument or debate must be dispassionate. You tried to have an alibi in Albert Einstein’s Quote. But another great mind- Karl Marx said thus, “Religion is the opium of the masses”.
Its faith when it comes to the believer but it is better still to suspend one’s judgment if evidence that are empirical and evaluative is not found in support of one’s claim.
But there is one fact that I believe , I nor you for that matter in anyway in the scheme of things Nature has, call it God , is neither benign or hostile it is indifferent , how so ever you pray or you claim to the existence or nonexistence of God.
I ‘m fascinated by Bertrand Russell’s comment, “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence”
Anil: In every person's life comes a time in life when we question the existence of God due to many reasons. I have passed that stage and can confidently say that I blv. As for he, it is out of habit only. I have mentioned this in another blog post and am waiting to clarify the same when I meet he/she or neither when I meet personally :)
DeleteThe chaos is not the creation of God and that I am sure.. even natural disasters has the fingerprint of men. If one tests nuclear bombs below the earth's surface, it is bound to affect the plate and end in an earthquake somewhere.. as for tsunami, I am sure even this has something to do with the same.
But then it is futile to argue for or against God. Millions before me has done the same and shall continue.Of course God is not offended, it is just we who think that we are big enough to defend him!
Asha, You feel that because there is uncertainty about origin of Universe, there is god. So god just become a fill in the blank for answers we don't know. Such thinking is cheating your logical mind. I cant be a party to that.
ReplyDeleteSome where you said the nature is so beautiful and living things are so perfect... another proof of god!
Tell that to a family who lost everything in a tsunami or earth quake or a thunder storm!
Are living things so perfect? Just look at internal organs of humans. What a poor patch up job it is! You mentioned DNA coding. Unlike the human made computer code, major part of human DNA do not code for anything!
Imperfections of nature actually negates intelligent design.
Asha, You feel that because there is uncertainty about origin of Universe, there is god. So god just become a fill in the blank for answers we don't know. Such thinking is cheating your logical mind. I cant be a party to that.
ReplyDeleteSome where you said the nature is so beautiful and living things are so perfect... another proof of god!
Tell that to a family who lost everything in a tsunami or earth quake or a thunder storm!
Are living things so perfect? Just look at internal organs of humans. What a poor patch up job it is! You mentioned DNA coding. Unlike the human made computer code, major part of human DNA do not code for anything!
Imperfections of nature actually negates intelligent design.
Doc, most of the disasters are man made and God has nothing to do with it. But if I tell you that even earthquakes are man made there will be many who will not blv.
DeleteYou talk about the internal organs of humans and a poor patch up? Can you even suggest one change to it that would make it better? As a doctor you must know that each organ, each cell plays a definite role and together it sustains life. It is a wonderful job indeed and I have always wondered how it was planned to perfection.
If you think that major part of DNA do not code anything then I would like to blv that it's function is yet to be discovered. I am sure the study on DNA is not complete.
I am a firm believer in god and i dont think religion or god does any thing bad..its the misguided people,..god is always righteous and gives us what we deserve according to our karma.
ReplyDeleteAnd one more thing, god is not a subject for logic or reason, its a matter of faith and devotion..shraddha aur vishwas.
Yes Renu.. it is easy for some of us to blv this simple rule. I need no logic or reason since it is felt by the heart. Like how we feel pain. Can we really describe it? When someone hurts us have you felt the pain from your heart? Is there a logic behind this? How can the heart know pain?
DeleteHi Asha I see a error in the sentence construction in my comment. Please read the sentence thus...
ReplyDelete"But there is one thing that I believe and has not seen yet a proof to the contrary , I nor you for that matter, do not matter in anyway in the scheme of things Nature has, call it God or something , is neither benign nor hostile it is merely indifferent , how so ever you pray or you claim to the existence or nonexistence of God."
God is not indifferent.. not to me. He has been real to me. Nature is not indifferent either. But then you might have meant that nature will continue to exist even when humans are extinct..
DeleteWhy not discuss? It is futile to believe in something because one is taught so and one feels comfortable, regardless of attributes and proof for or against. With due respect for your sentiments I see that you refuse to entertain a thought that can be discussed against the existence of a big brother. The image of what you called God is instilled in your subconscious from childhood through your formative age. It is the case with all. In my case I got out of the cocoon when I was seventeen. And since, I feel confident of being able to walk without crutches. My skeptical ,agnostic or atheistic mindset has helped me much in respecting the faith of the other as long as it does not maul me or others. I ‘m at ease and reverence when in a church or a temple. I cannot see different Gods. Only that if there was God, as I said before I do not have great appreciation for him.
ReplyDeleteYou can only see him or her as benevolent, caring and so on. The Jews see their God as wrathful and vengeful. God himself told them that he is a jealous God. So there are elements of human character in God. Don't you see? Doesn’t that tell you something?
Back home Vayalar Ramavarmn’s song,”Manushyan mathangalle srishtitchu ….” Is an indisputable argument or statement.
As for natural disasters, though some of it now may be man’s provocation , tsunamis, earthquakes and volcano eruptions have been happening even before man split the atom.
I‘m of the opinion that one has the right to have faith and keep it to oneself. If one feel comfortable in believing one should. But when it comes to a debate, argument or discussion on the question of God or his/her existence then one must not lean back on the dictum that faith is blind and cannot be bargained .One must feel free to lay bare why and why not?
No, Nature is indifferent, it does not care or disregard you. You just happen to be that is all. How can you say Nature is not indifferent?
I meant futile since this is being discussed since ages and reached no where. The atheists wants proof where the believer does not have one.
DeleteAs for my subconscious mind and all that where your parents non-believers? If not how did you become one since if what you say holds true, your subconscious mind would have been absorbing the belief of your parents. There are many atheists whose parents are non-atheists. And while growing up everything centers around your family and for most, their parents are perfect. But you grow out of all this and should be growing out of God too.
Ok I agree natural disasters have been happening even before.. I take back my argument :)
Nature adapts. This is not out of indifference. In Chernobyl it is told that some animals have changed to adapt to the radiation that still lingers. An indifferent nature would have left it bare and barren.
Ha , Asha you are mixing up things. First, the last point on Nature. When I said nature is not hostile or benign but merely indifferent I meant that when she unleashes her power she do not a wee bit think for the ones who are drowned in a tsunami or a volcanic eruption. It doesn't matter for Nature if I survive, you or any one we know. If we are killed it doesn't matter if we survive it doesn't either. In that sense there is no sense in arguing that nature or God was hostile or benign. You mixed this fact with the largesse of Nature and the barrenness. Adaptation is the process by which living tings blend with the surroundings, isn’t it? The necessity to blend with nature is not of nature but of the ones who live. And again Nature sticks to physical laws and evolves and that may take hundreds and millions of years. Isn’t it. We can call this the hand of God if you wish
ReplyDeleteRemember when we say that God has been kind to us and helped us see through difficulties, remember there a million others who were devastated by the inaction of the same God. Why is God then discriminating?
As for me personally, I’m from a religious and somewhat conservative family. I was a keen believer a, temple goer, etc. I certainly must have been influenced by the matters that a God fearing family may have inculcated. But I feel there was some spark of difference in me and I began to read and be skeptic around in my late teens. It was an uneventful transition from those early beliefs to more provocative thoughts. Since then there was no questions of doubt, fear over my thinking. I would be willing to debate on the existence or otherwise of God but only to a person who is not a fanatic, a bigot and one without closed eyes. If someone ardently says the God exist and closes his eyes, I would prefer to let him have the pleasure of his faith. Why must I worry? A discussion with him will not enliven me.
Well dear friend I wrote this far only because I felt that you are of the former kind.
The majority dismisses God since he seems helpless. When someone who deserve to live is taken away from our side, we blame God and the futility of such a powerful "myth". But what if his death was not an accident? It is only because we fear death and think it is the final event that we lament. We cry and refuse to accept it thinking that God has done the ultimate injustice to her/him. What if it just the beginning of another journey? Maybe it is for this reason that some community make death a celebration. I have seen it myself where they sing and dance with joy.
DeleteAs for nature, if it is considered to be an inanimate object, one cant expect it to be discerning. Only humans are given the discerning power. Nature as you said exists upon certain laws.
Asha, if a modern day Enginner creates a human heart it will be entirely different from the grotesque thing we have. Our heart is so out of shape and inefficient because it has evolved from the heart of primitive fishes which in turn has evolved from unicellular organisms. Changes took place one by one and beneficial ones which gave survival advantage persisted and replicated. Thus lot of things in our body is inefficient or useless. DNA codes are also like that.
ReplyDeleteDoc: I read upon the artificial heart and realized the difficulties our "human engineers" are facing. The one they have devised is not much different from what God originally invented :) but it is not as reliable. Artificial hearts are implanted for those who are waiting for a donor. There are many hurdles yet to be crossed; one being the heart a bit too big for the body. Hence I said how perfectly the human body has been designed.
DeleteIf as you said changes are happening constantly why not in the recent times. Why has this change suddenly stopped? Has evolution reached it's perfection?
Deleted this by mistake:
ReplyDeletearunnm (http://arunnm.wordpress.com/) has left a new comment on your post "Is God a myth?":
Anil, you have stated my position in a better way. Have nothing more to add.
Asha, you have every right to believe in mythical creatures. At the same I have the right to criticise it and call it irrational.
Hello Asha, the discussion is not on the question of ones right to make a statement or critcise. I entered into this volatile terrain knowing fully that a believer will not appreciate my point.
ReplyDeleteBut please see it as a healthy argument.
As for death, that is natural, even gods died when they were born in this earth.But people , even believers ask the question why the big brother was heartless and took away a young or why he was cruel to young bride and took away her husband. Why did he not let his powers save a passenger air craft from crashing and wiping out innocent passengers, why he let his powers not ward off a stampede at a religious center so on . There is no answer. If you can recollect , a few years back when a young nun was raped by gangsters the Bishop of the parish was audacious to tell her that was God's way of testing her.
It is difficult to let go years of conditioning and the ensuing comfort. So there is nothing wrong in your belief. As long as such trust or belief in God do not make you a bigot. For if there is God as you want to believe he or she cannot be attributed mans parochial mind set.
Let me sign off from this discussion by saying that even Gods like Nature are led by Natural laws.
And Asha , your comment of the Blogger Arunam is apt. Man cannot play God , not yet. The artificial heart man invented is unremarkable and unreliable contraption.
ReplyDeleteAnd the evolution of life, into Homo spaiens and the multitude of creatures we now see , the flora of amazing kinds all are exemplary hand work of Nature, of evolution. Call it God. Man , I do not know will ever dissect and decipher the last frontier let alone reach some where there. Evolution keeps happening. We do not feel and see, It takes millions of years to manifest don't you see?